Bombing in Boston

[vincent_richter]

First off, "Public Safety" exception to Miranda. It's been around just as long, and certainly applies to people WILLING TO BLOW THE SHIT OUT OF FELLOW CITIZENS.

Second, Tsarnaev isn't alive for a lack of trying to die; he just ran out of ammo.

Third, I can't be the only one to think this is Chechnya coming back to bite us square on the ass.

[darththeo]

Originally Posted by vincent_richter

First off, "Public Safety" exception to Miranda. It's been around just as long, and certainly applies to people WILLING TO BLOW THE SHIT OUT OF FELLOW CITIZENS.

Second, Tsarnaev isn't alive for a lack of trying to die; he just ran out of ammo.

Third, I can't be the only one to think this is Chechnya coming back to bite us square on the ass.

There is a public safety exception, but the police are required to capture someone alive if possible, not kill them. They aren't judge, jury or an executioner ... their job is to make arrests and stop known/suspected criminals (which lethal force is a last resort).

[vincent_richter]

Originally Posted by darththeo

There is a public safety exception, but the police are required to capture someone alive if possible, not kill them. They aren't judge, jury or an executioner ... their job is to make arrests and stop known/suspected criminals (which lethal force is a last resort).

Fair enough, but credit where it's due: Boston PD didn't haul off and execute a known cop-killer, which is impressive in its own right as it's better than he would've got anywhere else. Once you decide that a cop's life is worthless enough to summarily execute one, it's a reasonable expectation that others will find your life equally forfeit. That Tsarnaev wasn't gunned down in that damned boat is a testament to the restraint and patience of the officers involved - not to any feat or advantage owed him.

[OhZone]

I'm glad they got the guy, but I wish this more about Bimbo-ing in Boston instead! Oh well.

[vincent_richter]

As long as he's having a blast, teehee!

[Drachen]

Originally Posted by vincent_richter

First off, "Public Safety" exception to Miranda. It's been around just as long, and certainly applies to people WILLING TO BLOW THE SHIT OUT OF FELLOW CITIZENS.

That's not the point of that exception. Complete pieces of shit have rights too. That was the whole point of the Miranda warning in the first place. The reason that's read to everyone on arrest was because a kidnapper and rapist got away on a technicality just because his rights were violated. There's a good argument for the public safety exception because these guys were bombers and it's quite possible that there are other devices out there. It's not because he injured and killed a lot of people.

It's also worth reminding people that whatever else he is, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is an American citizen.

Originally Posted by vincent_richter

Third, I can't be the only one to think this is Chechnya coming back to bite us square on the ass.

You probably are. Besides making complaints that the Russians were too harsh on their own people and allowing some Chechen political refugees into the country, we didn't get involved in Chechnya at all. You might be thinking of the 2008 incident between Georgia and Russia that John McCain tried briefly to make a campaign issue. If I were to have made a list of probable organizations and ethnicities likely to have perpetrated the bombing, Chechens would have been down near the bottom along with the Tamil Tigers and the Real IRA.

[Rachel Bronwyn]

Originally Posted by vincent_richter

Second, Tsarnaev isn't alive for a lack of trying to die; he just ran out of ammo.

He didn't offer himself up to die as his brother did. He wasn't the one with explosives strapped to his body. I don't doubt he would have proceeded to kill more people with additional ammunition.

Third, I can't be the only one to think this is Chechnya coming back to bite us square on the ass.

Pretty sure it's just a couple Chechen jihadists. As per Drachen, not a lot of American involvement in that struggle.

I'm not sure these men had any separatist organisation behind them. We'll see whether Tamerlan recieved training over the last couple years.

[OhZone]

Rachel on the Miranda Rights issue.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/2...iranda-rights/

[tghawk555]

Originally Posted by OhZone

I'm glad they got the guy, but I wish this more about Bimbo-ing in Boston instead! Oh well.

Would that it were, my dear Ozara, would that it were...

[vincent_richter]

Originally Posted by Drachen

It's also worth reminding people that whatever else he is, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is an American citizen.

Drastic oversimplification on my part, but when there's the possibility of more devices out there endangering more innocent lives, discovering that information has to be worth more than your right to invoke. That's not saying he should be waterboarded, merely that he needs to be held until it can be determined that he's not gonna phone a friend and blow up half of Times Square.

Originally Posted by Drachen

If I were to have made a list of probable organizations and ethnicities likely to have perpetrated the bombing, Chechens would have been down near the bottom along with the Tamil Tigers and the Real IRA.

I suppose it says something about the times that I first suspected white supremacists - if not a definite pattern. Think about it, though: what louder way to say "you're not paying attention" than by blowing up a few thousand civilians on one of the world's largest stages?

Originally Posted by Rachel_Bronwyn

He didn't offer himself up to die as his brother did. He wasn't the one with explosives strapped to his body. I don't doubt he would have proceeded to kill more people with additional ammunition.

I'm glad you left that last line intact.
Is he a stone-cold killer? He ran over his brother when fleeing campus.
Does he fully appreciate the gravity of his actions? That's significantly harder to gauge.
What concerns me is the possibility that he knew exactly what he was doing, and that people are willing to write off the wanton devastation he caused, simply because he got squeamish.

[Rachel Bronwyn]

What's the belief suspects are less likely to talk after being read their rights based on? Wouldn't suspects know, prior to those rights being read, that remaining silent may be beneficial? Wouldn't they be familiar with the Miranda warning prior to being apprehended? I'm confused.

I don't know whether the man understands what he's done. I don't have sufficient information to formulate an opinion on that. I wouldn't claim running over his brother's body is evidence he's a stone-cold killer. If I saw my sister killed and knew I was next, I'd flee without concern for her body too.

He seems to be less gung-ho about dying for the cause than his bro. I'm not handwaving away his actions. If anything, I think his brother's willingness to die showed more integrity (albeit dreadfully misguided, in my opinion) than his hiding in a boat.

[Rachel Bronwyn]

I amend previous statements. Looks like he tried to blow himself and those trying to recover him up a couple times while hiding the the boat. See video here. It seems he's not great with explosives.

EDIT: Those were flash-bang devices to impair the suspect, not anything he set off.