Lost

[resiz3d]

Originally Posted by blackshirtboy

they toss in the scenes during the credits of a quite crash site to leave the whole existence of the island, of the entire fecking show ambiguous!

What was ambigious about it? The crash happened, the island was in reality.

Not to mention the purgatory thing opens up a shitload of plot holes! What happened with the nuclear bomb? Why didn't Jack turn into black smoke when he went to the heart of the island?

Nuclear Bomb didnt work. (Juliette saying it DID work was her getting a glimpse of the afterlife since she was dying. The candy machine is what worked. The bomb probably created the need for the Swan station in the first place. By trying to change history they played right into it.

As for Jack - who knows. Maybe cuz he was the islands protector. Maybe cuz he wasn't evil? A wizard done it? Maybe he did get a black smoke body and he, hurley and ben solve mysteries with their pet dog for the next few years.

It did offer a sense of closer, it wasn't the worst ending they could have done. But come on!

What answers were you looking for? And if they gave any answers could they live up to what we wanted or would we get the Lost equivalent of Midichlorians?

Lost was about the characters first and they wrapped that up beautifully. There are a LOT of unanswered questions, but I don't really care.

[resiz3d]

Originally Posted by insomniac

I'm glad I never watched that show. I'm pretty sure I'm better off without it.

I mean really, the hate/love/garbage that people are spewing online about A TV SHOW is hilarious.

Those who hate on Lost hate on it because underneath they have a deep love for it.

Passion!

[Wussy]

Originally Posted by resiz3d

What was ambigious about it? The crash happened, the island was in reality.

I'm noticing that a lot of the people who had problems with the ending were not paying any attention at all.

I mean, Christian tells Jack directly that the island and everything that happened on it was real, and that he's at the church because he and everyone else is dead ("some before you, some long after you").

What answers were you looking for? And if they gave any answers could they live up to what we wanted or would we get the Lost equivalent of Midichlorians?

One of my friends at work is upset that they didn't explain in detail how the time travelling, immortality-bestowing, teleporting island. I told him that he's the reason that we have midichlorians ("But HOW does the Force work?").

There are a LOT of unanswered questions, but I don't really care.

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

Originally Posted by insomniac

I'm glad I never watched that show. I'm pretty sure I'm better off without it.

Hey now. I hated Battlestar Galactica's ending. Still love the show. People who are disappointed with LOST's ending are misunderstanding the point of the entire show.

From the very beginning, all the way back in season one, the core of the show was Science vs Faith. Jack represented science while Locke represented faith. However, Jack eventually realized that Locke was right and spent all of season 5 and 6 basically trying to make up for the fact that he was wrong about everything.

Naturally, the ending goes along with the "Faith > Science" theme, and that got people mad. But they told the viewers that they weren't going to answer every question ("Every answer I give is just going to lead to more questions.") and they even said that some of the answers are more mundane than you might think ("It's just a line of chalk."). But some people are just never satisfied unless they understand EXACTLY how hyperspace/lightsabers/smoke monsters/etc work.

[resiz3d]

Originally Posted by Wussy

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

Hahaha that was awesome!

[blackshirtboy]

I realize they directly state that the island was real but if you look at it another way then the entire show becomes about Jack accepting his death. From there it isn't hard to be able to assume the entire events of the show were in his head as demonstrated by when he puts the cork back in (accepting his fate) and reappears by the riverbed, from there he walks into the forrest and lays down exactly where he woke up in the first episode. He then closes his eye to mirror it opening in the first episode.
You could assume that the entirety of the show takes place between him opening and closing his eyes right there in the space of seconds.
This is also pointed to by Desmond when he says "there's a place we can go where we can see everyone again" or something similar. Desmond has been trying to get Jack to move on for the whole series while the character of Locke has been continually challenging his beliefs and keeping him on the mortal plane. Only when Locke is revealed as the embodiment of this (when he's possessed by the black smoke) does Jack realize that. Jacob offers him salvation and other people are other aspects representing his life and his mind I'm sure if you think about it hard enough.

But there's just as much evidence pointing to the island being real! It's that final scene with the abandoned crash site that throws you off!


Also in relation to what you said about questions being answered: I had none! That's what pisses me off. They spend this whole season answering everything and then at the end when you're expecting something big and awesome and possibly DHARMA/ sciency related the writers are just like "pffft, whatever, it's heaven." It just feels like such a cop out.

I liked the Battlestar Galactica ending, it wasn't great but it was ten times more satisfying then Lost was.

[Wussy]

Originally Posted by blackshirtboy

I realize they directly state that the island was real but if you look at it another way then the entire show becomes about Jack accepting his death. From there it isn't hard to be able to assume the entire events of the show were in his head as demonstrated by when he puts the cork back in (accepting his fate) and reappears by the riverbed, from there he walks into the forest and lays down exactly where he woke up in the first episode. He then closes his eye to mirror it opening in the first episode.

You could assume that the entirety of the show takes place between him opening and closing his eyes right there in the space of seconds.
This is also pointed to by Desmond when he says "there's a place we can go where we can see everyone again" or something similar. Desmond has been trying to get Jack to move on for the whole series while the character of Locke has been continually challenging his beliefs and keeping him on the mortal plane. Only when Locke is revealed as the embodiment of this (when he's possessed by the black smoke) does Jack realize that. Jacob offers him salvation and other people are other aspects representing his life and his mind I'm sure if you think about it hard enough.

That's a very odd way of looking at it, because it totally discounts every other character in existence. It not only forgets that we've followed the POV of characters other than Jack, it also ignores that every other major character had a flashback scene, and therefore had lives and existed before they crashed on the island.

As a side note, Locke was not "possessed" by the black smoke. Locke died. ("Dead is dead. There's no coming back from that, not even here.") The smoke monster just took his shape.

But there's just as much evidence pointing to the island being real! It's that final scene with the abandoned crash site that throws you off!

The final scene with the abandoned crash site had nothing to do with the writers. ABC added that themselves. http://www.starpulse.com/news/index...._lost_added_by

In Canada they didn't get that shot at all.

Also in relation to what you said about questions being answered: I had none! That's what pisses me off. They spend this whole season answering everything and then at the end when you're expecting something big and awesome and possibly DHARMA/ sciency related the writers are just like "pffft, whatever, it's heaven." It just feels like such a cop out.

You and I have totally different ideas about "big and awesome" then. Them being in the afterlife was totally unexpected to me, but at the same time it made a lot of sense upon retrospect. It gave the series a strong sense of closure while at the same time leaving it open for further adventures (Richard off the island, Hurley/Ben protecting it, etc). I thought that reveal was amazing and it fit the show, given how the characters could suddenly remember even their own deaths.

I liked the Battlestar Galactica ending, it wasn't great but it was ten times more satisfying then Lost was.

What is Starbuck? How'd she get a Viper? Why did THAT SONG awaken the Final 5, and where was it coming from? What was with Starbuck's dad?

LOST at least attempted to answer some of those questions. BSG just says, "God did it." That's literally the answer to any question you have about BSG. What is Head Six? God. What is Head Baltar? God. What is the opera house? God. How does resurrection technology work? God.

etc etc

[resiz3d]

Originally Posted by blackshirtboy

big and awesome and possibly DHARMA/ sciency related

Well, there's your problem! At first glance Lost seems like a science fiction show, but it's not. It's fantasy through and through. Fate, destiny, smoke monsters, time travel, immortals, speaking to the dead, teleportation.

Dharma tried to make sense of it with science but could not. This is why you won't get any sciencey answers out of lost. If you were watching any other fantasies would you ask how the dragons got there, why magic worked or needed to know the the scientific intricacies of crystal balls? It's the same for Lost.

[Pink Hair-Dye Guy]

Originally Posted by resiz3d

Well, there's your problem! At first glance Lost seems like a science fiction show, but it's not. It's fantasy through and through. Fate, destiny, smoke monsters, time travel, immortals, speaking to the dead, teleportation.

Dharma tried to make sense of it with science but could not. This is why you won't get any sciencey answers out of lost. If you were watching any other fantasies would you ask how the dragons got there, why magic worked or needed to know the the scientific intricacies of crystal balls? It's the same for Lost.

Time travel - Star Trek, Dr Who, The Time Machine (this one kinda gives it away) and Back to the Future. Sure there are more though.

Black smoke monsters - Giant worms, three legged creatures that can travel through lightning, shadows that eat you and rapidly multiplying balls of fur all fantasy descriptions of sci fi monsters.

Fate/Destiny - this is more an idea than a scenario thing though pretty much pointed out in the Time machine that you can't screw around with fate (also I believe in a ben affleck film aswell).

Immortals - Ehhhhh Q has been seen to be pretty darn immortal, so has the Master the Doctor himself will prolly turn out to be one aswell so that the beeb can continue making the show The Emperor is also pretty darn immortal oh and then there is the super soldiers from the X-Files.

Teleportaion - really? you... you're trying to claim Stargates main thing as fantasy? You be trolling here aren't you, you cruel and devious person you! ;__;

Speaking to the dead - zombie films =D what? it counts, not my fault that talking to them gets you killed.

Hmm seems to be getting awfuly sci-fi in your fantasy thar =o

[Wussy]

Yes, and what is your point? Fantastic things can exist in both sci-fi AND fantasy! You have just blown my mind!

Sci-fi = there is an underlying explaination for things. Warp engines create a subspace field around the ship that pushes it partially into another dimension and therefore it can travel faster than the speed of light.

Fantasy = there is no underlying explaination; it's just magic. Gandalf raises his staff and light shoots out of it. Sauruman chants at the wind and causes an avalanche half a world away.

Again, LOST is fully, 100% in the fantasy camp. Electromagnetism doesn't work that way. Hell, nuclear bombs do not work that way. And looking under the temple to try and find a robot that makes nanomachines that can regenerate a person's cells and thus reverse a man's spinal paralysis is completely missing the point of the show.

[resiz3d]

Originally Posted by Pink Hair-Dye Guy

Hmm seems to be getting awfuly sci-fi in your fantasy thar =o

Yes, Sci Fi and Fantasy often share many fantastic themes.

Originally Posted by Arthur C Clarke

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

But none of the fantastic elements in Lost were ever really introduced as Science.

There were no time machines. (unless you somehow count that wooden wheel)
No teleportation machines
Not much of anything at all, they were on a freaking island. Many of the events happened hundreds of years in the past long before the invention of even a freaking vacuum tube.

The only sci-fi explanation could be Aliens and NO ONE wanted to see that deus ex machina.

[blackshirtboy]

Originally Posted by Wussy

As a side note, Locke was not "possessed" by the black smoke. Locke died. ("Dead is dead. There's no coming back from that, not even here.") The smoke monster just took his shape.

Yes I know, I was using possessed because I don't care that much about details like that when they aren't related to the point I'm trying to make.

Originally Posted by Wussy

The final scene with the abandoned crash site had nothing to do with the writers. ABC added that themselves. http://www.starpulse.com/news/index...._lost_added_by

In Canada they didn't get that shot at all.

Well apparently they do as that's how I saw it. I suppose Space decided to add it for some asshole reason.
The fact that the writers didn't want it however makes me feel much much better though, thanks.

Originally Posted by Wussy

You and I have totally different ideas about "big and awesome" then. Them being in the afterlife was totally unexpected to me, but at the same time it made a lot of sense upon retrospect. It gave the series a strong sense of closure while at the same time leaving it open for further adventures (Richard off the island, Hurley/Ben protecting it, etc). I thought that reveal was amazing and it fit the show, given how the characters could suddenly remember even their own deaths.

It still didn't sit well with me, especially because while Lost has always been a very spiritual show it's always been about metaphors and I feel they should have kept it that way. I probably would have even preferred it if it was not told to us that they were dead but instead only hinted at. As the church they were in was the same one that contained The Lamppost in the alternate timeline (or in "real life" whatever) they should have done some crazy electro-magnetism-cross-dimensionality-doojigger and then opened the doors to the church and have it all glowy. Then it would get back into the realm of metaphors, you could assume either path could be possible.

Originally Posted by Wussy

What is Starbuck? How'd she get a Viper? Why did THAT SONG awaken the Final 5, and where was it coming from? What was with Starbuck's dad?

LOST at least attempted to answer some of those questions. BSG just says, "God did it." That's literally the answer to any question you have about BSG. What is Head Six? God. What is Head Baltar? God. What is the opera house? God. How does resurrection technology work? God.

etc etc

Yes but they set that up almost from the very beginning, BSG always had more overtly religious tones while Lost was more covert. I found it easier to swallow the "God did it" thing because that's already been a major theme throughout the entire series.

Also what the hell do you mean how does resurrection technology work? Their brains are downloaded to the nearest resurrection ship and uploaded into new bodies.

The opera house was a shared vision that depicts each characters role in both individual episodes and in the finale. It was lie a big teaser and I thought they did it quite well.
"Head Baltar" and Head Six"...... ok God did it. So what? I buy that.
They point is that it's more expected in BSG, in Lost this afterlife crap comes right out of left field and while again, it does offer closure, it just doesn't really fit with the rest of the show.

Originally Posted by blackshirtboy

big and awesome and possibly DHARMA/ sciency related

Ok ok let me explain, I didn't necessarily mean "science fiction except that I did. I know very well that sci-fi and fantasy are two sides of the same coin of speculative fiction, I do. But DHARMA has always been present throughout the show (or at least since the discovery of the Hatch) and I would have loved to see it come back for the finale busting out the crazy pseudo-science. Take my example above where they somehow use the Lamppost to cross dimensions, I feel that would have been a better, perhaps more satisfying ending then the one presented.

It would have happened exactly the same only no one would have directly said they were dead (I guess no one did but you know what I mean) and there would have been the presence of the DHARMA station in the church and perhaps a set up like Whitmore had in the shed except on the altar, someone, maybe Jack, would flip the switch or do something that could mirror him putting the cork back in and then they would carry on with the same ending from there. The Oceanic passengers all sit in the pews as the doors open and the church floods with light. Cut to Jack on the riverbed. Maybe his dad even shows up in the church, or it zooms out and suddenly the church is filled with like, every Lost character (the good guys, mind you. It bugged me they only had the main characters, I guess they didn't care enough about the other 60-or-so other friends they had on the island or something) and Desmonds next to Jack all smiling and like, "see you in another life, brotha."

I would have liked that. But these are just my opinions and I should stop here as this post has gone on long enough.

[Pink Hair-Dye Guy]

Originally Posted by Wussy

Yes, and what is your point? Fantastic things can exist in both sci-fi AND fantasy! You have just blown my mind!

My point was a tongue in cheek jest at Resiz3ds use of generic terms to say it was pure fantasy when they could of worked in numerous other genres. Glad I was able to help you realise this though, the gods know how much embarresment you would of died from if you got into a serious debate with someone and didn't know this

Originally Posted by Wussy

Sci-fi = there is an underlying explaination for things. Warp engines create a subspace field around the ship that pushes it partially into another dimension and therefore it can travel faster than the speed of light.

Fantasy = there is no underlying explaination; it's just magic. Gandalf raises his staff and light shoots out of it. Sauruman chants at the wind and causes an avalanche half a world away.

Ehhhh Gandalf and Saruman were both demigods and thus had access to things beyond mortal comprehension. Think that is pretty clear cut reason as to why they were able to do what they did. Trying to hide behind that is the defence of a crappy writer because science isn't the one who cries that you have broken rules, science is the one who tilts his head and goes "oh that's interesting" If you have a lack of science based characters I can understand there not being a scientific/sci-fi/science fantasy explanation but there will be an underlying explanation (if the reader/viewer can find them though is a totally different matter).

I never watched much beyond the first episode of lost so I will pretty much take anyones word on it. I will poke at people who offer flimsy reasoning for why I should accept what they say though, tis human nature.

Resiz3d - Yeah that sits easier with me though from the small amount of research I have done, lost is so genre busting that trying to fit it into one genre is like trying to fit Batman into a single DnD allignment.