Is BE sexist?

[Prophet Tenebrae]

A word on quantcast - there's about as much gold in a bucket of sea water as there is accuracy in their "statistics". As they say with fortune tellers - to be used for entertainment purposes only.

I'm not really see how I can relate to your point about gender bias, Very Good Karma... You're essentially throwing up your hands and saying that because we live in a society that is still patriarchal in its underlying leanings and the relative weakness of the female gender construct, we can't help but objectify? If you were making a general point, I might agree but really we're all free thinking individuals.

The point about PE is probably somewhat tangential given the various different societal and physical issues involving male genitalia - whether it would be comparable in a gender flipped universe, who can say?

But I am enjoying the debate, I love this stuff. I'm tempted to have a section on the FTF10paedia for it... but I'm not sure entirely how it would fit in, as it's a rather more subjective topic.

[Very_Good_Karma]

Originally Posted by Prophet Tenebrae

I'm not really see how I can relate to your point about gender bias, Very Good Karma... You're essentially throwing up your hands and saying that because we live in a society that is still patriarchal in its underlying leanings and the relative weakness of the female gender construct, we can't help but objectify? If you were making a general point, I might agree but really we're all free thinking individuals.

Uh... no, that wasn't what I was trying to say at all. Sorry if it came across that way; I wasn't trying to say anything specifically about gender bias at all- which maybe I should have, seeing as this is about sexism.

What I was trying to say is that, even within a society whose sexism is taken for granted for the purposes of the argument, breast expansion fantasy still isn't sexist because the female characters depicted within are able to achieve society's unreasonable standards of beauty proactively, in the same way that a real woman might go to school to get a better job. Being valued by the appearance they have been born with isn't something that they must merely submit to; instead they have the power to determine their appearance on their own, and thus take advantage of sexist bias. This isn't saying anything about the rightness or wrongness of such standards and biases for the purposes of this argument; the point is that women's relationships with those standards are changed.

I don't know if this is an airtight refutation; but I hadn't seen many good arguments for why BE would be sexist in the thread yet, so I was just trying to make an exercise of coming up with an argument and then refuting it.

Again, the actual unreasonable standards of beauty are bad, although not necessarily sexist in situations in which similar unreasonable standards are applied to men. But without assuming such standards are in place, I don't think a breast expansion fetish could be any more sexist than a clothes-turning-green fetish. Sexism is dependent on there being a perception of what a person of a given gender should be like.

[Blake Isaac Gordon]

Originally Posted by Very_Good_Karma

breast expansion fantasy still isn't sexist because the female characters depicted within are able to achieve society's unreasonable standards of beauty proactively, in the same way that a real woman might go to school to get a better job.

First here's a definition:

sex⋅ism
  /ˈsɛksɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sek-siz-uhm] Show IPA
?noun
1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women.

Fetish-ism is directly related to some form of sexual context, thus the moment a fetish is applied to a female her 'new' emphasis is sexual. (aka--- her new role is sexual)

To be fair (or unfair - however you want to perceive it) the whole concept of sexism favors females, based upon how human sexuality works.

Question how many male-brothels exist for the sole purpose of servicing females?

I've always argued that if a woman wants sex she only needs spend minimal effort and some guy will oblige (especially if she reduced all standards down to: does he breathe and have a working penis).

Thus BE is sexist because BE is about a sexual role.



But try this scenario:

1. The US makes all forms of prostitution legal.
2. Modern pharmaceuticals allows a woman to have 100% control over her reproductive cycle AND can eliminate all forms of STDS.
3 Body-modification (plastic surgery) becomes safe, pain-free, and effortless thus a person can change their overall all appearance as effortlessly as getting a new wardrobe.

Question: How many women would elect to go into the solicitation business especially if salaries were very, very good (as in more than a doctor, lawyer, or engineer makes?) And what would happen to our modern society if this was the case?

[NimrodClover]

Originally Posted by Blake Isaac Gordon

First here's a definition:

sex⋅ism
  /ˈsɛksɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sek-siz-uhm] Show IPA
?noun
1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.
2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women.

Fetish-ism is directly related to some form of sexual context, thus the moment a fetish is applied to a female her 'new' emphasis is sexual. (aka--- her new role is sexual)

To be fair (or unfair - however you want to perceive it) the whole concept of sexism favors females, based upon how human sexuality works.

Question how many male-brothels exist for the sole purpose of servicing females?

I've always argued that if a woman wants sex she only needs spend minimal effort and some guy will oblige (especially if she reduced all standards down to: does he breathe and have a working penis).

Thus BE is sexist because BE is about a sexual role.

I do not agree. The definition of sexist you used is one can agree to, however the jump to link the fetish aspect of BE to the sex role devaluation is weak. Why? Well, lets look at a good definition of fetish.

FETISH
From Merriam-Webster:
a: an object (as a small stone carving of an animal) believed to have magical power to protect or aid its owner ; broadly : a material object regarded with superstitious or extravagant trust or reverence b: an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion : prepossession c: an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression.

Definition C is how I have understood a fetish to apply. That is why I have always found the nearly ubiquitous label that BE is a fetish a bit inaccurate. A fetish is a "psychological necessity" for sexual gratification. Remove that aspect and with a true fetish there is no sexual gratification. It would have to be that way to qualify as a "fetish". As soon as one says, well yes but... that opens the up the labeling options to sexual preferences, trends, interests, etc.

I would argue that a fetish is better applied to things rather than body parts, because if one prefers a nice butt on someone (both men and women) that does not immediately make it a fetish and I would not say it is patently sexist. Finding something sensual or sexy does not automatically make it a fetish.

As I do not see BE as a true fetish except for a few people, I can not agree with your link without exceptions between BE and the sexist definition as it would only apply in the most sweeping and generalized manner. That is using the exceptions to set the rule. I do not agree that a fetish is about a sexual role but rather a disproportionate fixation on an aspect that is necessary for ones sexual gratification.

And seeing how this is about breast expansion which occurs naturally (if not to the extent in some BE) to women, and is one of the primary signals of sexual maturity for women, the argument that it is all that dissimilar to simply idealizing the female form does not hold up much in my mind.
This is a good question.

[Naonao]

Yes.

[timberwolf69]

no.

[Styerion]

Spy.

[LookAtIt]

Maybe. But is a porn site a place to care?

[Litch]

I'd say it's as sexist as any form of porno. Some women would be disgusted, some indifferent some enjoy it.

If it helps you sleep at night, then at least take note that in many BE / GTS etc stories it is the woman who is in control / the provoker, so at least it can be progressive in terms of gender roles (where in the vast majority of normal pornos the man is the dominant one).

[Chameo]

moral/ethical dilemmas rarely come into play in eroticism, Consider it a suspension of disbelief

[Clickme]

Yeah but without the Rule of Cool in play the Willing suspension of disbelief can only be stretched so far.

[grtcaligal]

Originally Posted by ryantherebel

I've been having this little personal debate with myself for sometime and I can't help but ask my self "is this fetish sexist?"

What do you guys think?

I consider your question sexist. Only wanting to hear from guys, jeeez