What's Missing: Loss of Strength

[Tiedefender]

This is a fascinating discussion.

Trying to grapple with all the size and mass/weight changes are difficult enough on their own. Though a significant size change would potentially make an object like clothes feel heavier. Or may make it to unwieldy to move properly. This would also depend on how the rules of the shrinking work. Specifically how much strength would a person still have after being shrunk in size.

One thing I would like to add to the mix is the shrinking speed. What if you shrank so fast that your clothes landed on you?

[Prof_Sai]

Originally Posted by Mathai

But at what point WOULD the combination of size and weight become too much? If 1/4 height results in 16 shirts, is my math right to say that 1/4 to 1/16 (The same percentage of shrink again) would result in 256 shirt equivalent, all layered and much larger than the subject Miss Dolly Bonnie?

That's right. 16^2 = 256. So the shirt would feel 256 times heavier.

The square/cube rule describes what you would expect from natural biological animals in the real world. Humans that followed these guidelines would be least likely to get into technobabble problems later on. Making shrunken humans weaker than the biology would suggest probably wouldn't get you into too much trouble. But your tinies would get injured and die too easily, and that is no fun.

I actually did enjoy the Ant-Man movies. They kept the technical details unimportant enough to the plot that I didn't need to worry about them too much. But now the writers have to be careful about future plots, as the audience might get stuck on "why don't they do what they said they could in the first movie".

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Here is a thought: When people shrink, the mass has to go somewhere. So what if some of it gets imbedded in the clothing, making it super heavy? It could become like the led aprons they use for taking X-Rays.

[Mathai]

Originally Posted by Tiedefender

Trying to grapple with all the size and mass/weight changes are difficult enough on their own. Though a significant size change would potentially make an object like clothes feel heavier. Or may make it to unwieldy to move properly. This would also depend on how the rules of the shrinking work. Specifically how much strength would a person still have after being shrunk in size.

One thing I would like to add to the mix is the shrinking speed. What if you shrank so fast that your clothes landed on you?

Since it is all theoretical stuff, I completely agree. Just like there are shrink rays, spells, and various forms of potions that can trigger the reduction, with outcomes varied from minimal size loss to microscopic, the results can have a non visible effect as well. Just like how ants and spiders have greater strength than their size would imply, a reduced human could wind up with diminished strength in comparison to their regular sized self.

Assuming the shrink is a 'poof' style, or fast enough to be over before the person can react, then the clothes would most likely waft down slowly and land on top. Its not a matter of gravity for the person who isn't falling but changing for the smaller. But the unaffected clothes definitely still must obey gravity. So if the shrink is faster than the speed at which a held shirt would fall to the ground in normal circumstances, then it would have to catch up to the shrunken person.

Originally Posted by Prof_Sai

Here is a thought: When people shrink, the mass has to go somewhere. So what if some of it gets imbedded in the clothing, making it super heavy? It could become like the led aprons they use for taking X-Rays.

That sounds plausible. It would be enough to disrupt the size to perceived weight scale you've been using in a way that explains where the mass all goes. It's been converted to another form, which might also result in the visual effects of whatever system is being used. I.e. the light that encircles the subject from a spell or ray, or maybe a steamy haze encircling the now smaller person. Some of that energy has been absorbed into the first available medium, their clothes.

It might also produce other effects that are why the clothing is impossible to escape, like a temporary magentic attraction that isn't usually present. It would also account for the greatly different effects from one media to another. A potion would probably not induce shrinking in the same way as a topical effect or something more electric.


One of my favorite theories about this is that such a significant change in size has got to expend a massive amount of energy. This process has got to expend an amount of energy equivalent to the amount of size reduction. Shrinking someone one foot requires one foot of energy in the most basic terms. I propose that shrinking somebody is harnessing the energy in the body to fuel the change. In some not very scientific terms, five feet of person is shrinking to one foot because four feet of person is being burned away in the procedure. Much like dieting and exercise combined burns fat away, a shrinking system uses up bone/muscle/hair/all the parts of the person until they are in their reduced state.

[Prof_Sai]

You don't want to be converting matter to energy. The conversion factor involves the speed of light squared, so a human sized mass will explode large cities off of the Earth. You have to put the mass somewhere. Information inherent to the subject must either be retained or intelligently paired down. You can't shrink atoms, period.

Also, you'd be using pounds or at least cubic feet. A "foot of mass" doesn't really mean anything unless you define the other two dimensions.

[Tina Tiny]

Originally Posted by Prof_Sai

You don't want to be converting matter to energy. The conversion factor involves the speed of light squared, so a human sized mass will explode large cities off of the Earth.

Or just explode my mind. O.O

[Mathai]

Originally Posted by Prof_Sai

You don't want to be converting matter to energy. The conversion factor involves the speed of light squared, so a human sized mass will explode large cities off of the Earth. You have to put the mass somewhere. Information inherent to the subject must either be retained or intelligently paired down.

Energy is probably the wrong word, and I think the phrase 'Intelligently paired down' describes what I mean pretty accurately. Having no real world scientific knowledge beyond what I remember from schooling and me attempting to ration it out. Especially since this is all in the realm of fantastic and unproven science, I give myself a little leeway on the exacts. As long as someone like yourself doesn't present compelling counter arguments like you have, of course.

My thinking is basically this. Like you theorized before, the atomic mass of a person can be dissipated into the atmosphere as a result of the outside influence. Where we start with a regular sized human that has had a changing element of energy applied, it can end then be split between a reduced version of that human and the rest of the matter dissipated into the surroundings. Much like a pot of water with tea bags, when the energy in a stove fire is applied, results in a pot of tea and a cloud of steam. The person becomes the tea, their lost height the steam. This could explain how they can eventually return to normal size later on, if possible.

My theory was that for such a massive and controlled change as shrinking, the energy source could be the person's body. I was imagining the energy released by an atomic weapon much like I think you were describing would be released by converting that much mass...But I counter that who's to say such a massive science bending transformation that also requires immense control so as to not have the same effect as those failed Ant Man movie experiments does NOT safely harness that level of energy in order to go properly? (Well...I suppose Prof_Sai is who, as you are way smarter on this subject that I am )

[Tiedefender]

Originally Posted by Mathai

Energy is probably the wrong word, and I think the phrase 'Intelligently paired down' describes what I mean pretty accurately. Having no real world scientific knowledge beyond what I remember from schooling and me attempting to ration it out. Especially since this is all in the realm of fantastic and unproven science, I give myself a little leeway on the exacts. As long as someone like yourself doesn't present compelling counter arguments like you have, of course.

My thinking is basically this. Like you theorized before, the atomic mass of a person can be dissipated into the atmosphere as a result of the outside influence. Where we start with a regular sized human that has had a changing element of energy applied, it can end then be split between a reduced version of that human and the rest of the matter dissipated into the surroundings. Much like a pot of water with tea bags, when the energy in a stove fire is applied, results in a pot of tea and a cloud of steam. The person becomes the tea, their lost height the steam. This could explain how they can eventually return to normal size later on, if possible.

My theory was that for such a massive and controlled change as shrinking, the energy source could be the person's body. I was imagining the energy released by an atomic weapon much like I think you were describing would be released by converting that much mass...But I counter that who's to say such a massive science bending transformation that also requires immense control so as to not have the same effect as those failed Ant Man movie experiments does NOT safely harness that level of energy in order to go properly? (Well...I suppose Prof_Sai is who, as you are way smarter on this subject that I am )

This reminds me of the Star Wars Vs Star Trek debates concerning how Phasers work. As they can vaporize a person with out huge quantities of energy being released. Only in this case, how does a person lose mass quickly without blowing up a city.

one idea came to mind about this some time ago. It involves electrostatic force. Say a person shrinks and retains their mass. Normally one would expect them to generate much more pressure on their feet the smaller they get. But what if this electrostatic force increases in proportion to the shrinking? It could cause enough repulsive force to make them feel lighter. They could keep their strength but objects could be so big that they couldn't manipulate them.

Another thing that could happen is having the mass and energy shunted into another dimension. They would lose the mass and energy but it would be safely directed some place safe. Maybe this could even allow them to think normally if the mass of the brain in the alternate dimension is still connected to brain in the body. Then they could be both lighter and weaker.

[Prof_Sai]

Originally Posted by Tina Tiny

Or just explode my mind. O.O

[Mathai]

Originally Posted by Tiedefender

one idea came to mind about this some time ago. It involves electrostatic force. Say a person shrinks and retains their mass. Normally one would expect them to generate much more pressure on their feet the smaller they get. But what if this electrostatic force increases in proportion to the shrinking? It could cause enough repulsive force to make them feel lighter. They could keep their strength but objects could be so big that they couldn't manipulate them.

Another thing that could happen is having the mass and energy shunted into another dimension. They would lose the mass and energy but it would be safely directed some place safe. Maybe this could even allow them to think normally if the mass of the brain in the alternate dimension is still connected to brain in the body. Then they could be both lighter and weaker.

Do you mean sort of like a magnet that is getting stronger and stronger the more compact it gets?

The best reason I can think of for why it would be incredibly hard for a shrunken person is basic leverage. The angles and the size of their arms is too greatly diminished to make anything as easy as when normal size and maybe even downright impossible?

[Tiedefender]

Originally Posted by Mathai

Do you mean sort of like a magnet that is getting stronger and stronger the more compact it gets?

The best reason I can think of for why it would be incredibly hard for a shrunken person is basic leverage. The angles and the size of their arms is too greatly diminished to make anything as easy as when normal size and maybe even downright impossible?

Yes, something like that.

I agree with that. It is no different with a normal sized person carrying a box that is big but not really heavy. As the center of gravity can greatly hinder a person in such a task.

[Mathai]

At this point really, unless anyone else has other thoughts they would like to submit, I think we only need some volunteers to test out all these theories.

[Prof_Sai]

uh oh... ::squeak::