Is BE sexist?

[Permafrost]

It's all erotic fantasy. You can ascribe sexist undertones to just about anything. Having men dominating women is sexist against men too, forcing them into a role designated by sexual preconceptions.

But it's all erotic fantasy. I like BE, but I also like some of the bimboization fetish stuff (which I know makes some people here FURIOus!). But S&M doesn't mean hitting people you meet is okay. Some women like to have forceful sex fantasies, even if they find rape to be utterly appalling and horrific.

I don't really want to be a bimbo. I'm about average intelligence, and I'd like to be smarter, actually. But I like bimbo fantasies for a number of reasons. Now would I like to have bigger breasts? Sure, yeah, I'm pretty flat and I'd like to be a little more balanced. But that's pretty separate from BE Fantasies.

In short, you can't really deconstruct erotic fantasy and condemn it as sexist or not. Or you can, but there's no point in it.

We could go around and around on this all day. All the people nitpicking about context and "how is the woman addressed or treated in the fantasy?" are missing the point. It's all sexist, but it doesn't matter, and you can't fairly call it sexist.

If you wanted to have a meaningful discussion on sexism, the question you would want to ask is: "Why do we have BE fetishes? Is it a result of societal gender roles or sexism?"

Asking "Is BE sexist?" is a worthless question.

[Prophet Tenebrae]

Surely the real point is - X is good if your belief set is Y. A is good if your belief set if X.

And everyone hates the Welsh.

[unclecanabis]

Breast expansion imho is one of the most sexy types of Female transformation. Women liking breast expansion is the SEXIEST!!! Go ahead girls swell them puppies up fer yer ol unclecanabis BWAHAHAHA!!

[insomniac]

Personally I'd say BE is about as sexist as a woman fantasizing about a man just because he is fit/handsome/etc. At some point we all have wanted someone who is different than who they are in real life, whether it be personality wise or physically different.

Any sort of process-y stuff is going to certainly look sexist on the outside, at least with the stuff here (except maybe tg? I dunno) but once you look deeper you see that it's just like anything else really, from imagining your wife/etc to be more turned on when you are having sex (personality change) to how she looks (hair color, bust size, anything.) While BE looks very 'vanity' and shallow, so does any other fantasy.

I don't worry about sexism with my fetishes (and I use that term loosely,) and I worry about others worrying that this is wrong or something. I say screw those that tell you you're going to hell for this: back in the day believing in Jesus was wrong, and now he's all hip and whatnot. There's not enough time on earth to be worrying about how you whack off.

[Blake Isaac Gordon]

Originally Posted by insomniac

... I say screw those that tell you you're going to hell for this: back in the day believing in Jesus was wrong, and now he's all hip and whatnot. There's not enough time on earth to be worrying about how you whack off.

Classic, if I didn't have a quote already this would be the one.

[barf]

BE is a fantasy (unless its the plastic surgery) so it doesn't hurt anyone, so rights aren't violated. The process itself can be seen as sexist, but there are some women who enjoy it as much, if not more, than guys, so the short answer is "it depends" i guess. my .02 cents

[Rutland43]

OK, so I really ought to check this thread more regularly. On the other hand, it means people say things far more elegantly than I could. I don't think there's really much more to be said, so let's try some kind of sythesis.

So, we're all pretty much agreed that whether BE is sexist or not depends on 'context', on how gender roles play out in the particular scenario. As Trianine said:

It's a silly kink, whether it is sexist or not really depends on how much you let it bleed into your actions/beliefs about women in general.

Which sums up a lot of what's been said. Sexism, really, is a matter of how society treats women, and the ways BE and other fetishes affects that depend on the representation and the individual concerned. Although Snowglare made an important point:

I must disagree that BE doesn't cause image problems. It too often takes the form of a realistically attainable result, and does encourage men to seek out larger than average chests. I don't think it's inherently evil - I agree that BE can be treated as pure fantasy - but I don't take as optimistic a view as you on how it is treated. I lump it in with mainstream examples of unrealistic body images. It's one more example of a form a woman could have but often doesn't. As surely as there are people who ignore anorexia to focus on how good a skinny woman looks, there are people who ignore the bags of silicone to focus on how big a woman's boobs are.

In other words, people don't dream of flying because it's impossible.

On the whole, I think we have to admit, BE is presented in a sexist way and it does encourage unrealistic body images. But that is not inherent to it, or any other, sexual fantasy.

Over to TF-Viewer:

You completely ignored half the definition of sexism
Quote: [from Blake Issac Gordon]
based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles

and instead concentrated only on the word "sexual" being present. From there you jump to the assumption that anything "sexual" is automatically sexist.

Which basically encapsulates the problem I have with using dictionary definitions in arguments: we all know what we mean when we use talk about 'sexism' or 'fetish'; if dictionaries don't encapsulate that, that's the publisher's problem. But, again, it should be recognised sexuality is not the same as sexism; it depends on the all-important 'context'.

Which brings us nicely on to PermafrostL

We could go around and around on this all day. All the people nitpicking about context and "how is the woman addressed or treated in the fantasy?" are missing the point. It's all sexist, but it doesn't matter, and you can't fairly call it sexist.

If you wanted to have a meaningful discussion on sexism, the question you would want to ask is: "Why do we have BE fetishes? Is it a result of societal gender roles or sexism?"

Asking "Is BE sexist?" is a worthless question.

To which I'd first say 'Why are you treating societal gender roles and sexism as if they're seperate?' (because although I know exactly what you mean, I'm intellectually smug like that), and then more constructively posit that it's because of the gender roles inherent in any society. Breasts are inextricably linked with motherhood and sexual maturity, so men will always (at some base level) view them as desirable in a mate. How this leads to exapansion, I'm not sure. I can't decide whether it's simply the idea that 'bigger is better' or, as NimrodClover pointed out, an extension of the natural process of puberty. I suspect it's both.

I hope that this is a good amalgamation of the various answers to 'Is BE sexist?'. But this thread has thrown up all sorts of other interesting questions: Why do we have BE fantasies? Are penis extension fantasies 'flipped' equivalents of breast expansion? Do we (whether male or female) treat such things as pure unrealism, or do they actually affect or body images? There are other I've missed, I'm sure, but I don't know the answer to any of them.

There are two quotes that some up the different approaches even more succinctly. First, Prophet Tenebrae:

I think if you're ready to TALK about it like this, you're inherently more adjusted than people who something.... something.

And, on behalf of those people who something...something, insomniac:

There's not enough time on earth to be worrying about how you whack off.

[blarxy12]

one thing to say and only one thing to say.. it depends on the person

[Soren]

I wouldn't say BE is sexist, because its a work of fiction only implying the thought of something unlikily to happen to a women during a situation, and since it is fiction it hasn't become a true act of sexist thoughts, turning women into bimbos is sexist in my opinion but BE is just enlarging a part of someones body by magical means, I mean would fans of muscle expansion or even penis expansion on guys (mostly girls) would say its sexist, its all on a matter of how you think should be placed into context if you like BE because it makes the girl more busty because you like big breasts then no thats not sexist thats just a matter of taste for women, though wanting BE because they aren't useful for anything but sex and being eye candy then that is definitly sexist so in the long run its based on your thoughts entirely and also on situation.

[Orcusmars]

Originally Posted by ryantherebel

I've been having this little personal debate with myself for sometime and I can't help but ask my self "is this fetish sexist?"

What do you guys think?

Porn, as a rule, basically fetishizes the body (more commonly, the female body) - a lot of people would argue that unrealistic depictions of submissive women and/or a woman whose sole aim is to partake in sexual acts with a penis is inherently sexist, as both require the sort of phallocentric mindset that gives power to the patriarchy. I don't see why Breast Expansion fetishism is any more or less sexist, honestly - though an argument could be made, I suppose.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by Orcusmars

Porn, as a rule, basically fetishizes the body (more commonly, the female body) - a lot of people would argue that unrealistic depictions of submissive women and/or a woman whose sole aim is to partake in sexual acts with a penis is inherently sexist, as both require the sort of phallocentric mindset that gives power to the patriarchy. I don't see why Breast Expansion fetishism is any more or less sexist, honestly - though an argument could be made, I suppose.

good point porn/hentai is based mainly on acts of men basically having sex with women or on the hentai side mostly women being put in situations that are indeed making the women populace look like they are nothing more then horny sluts that are submissive if you give them a good bang so it is a good argument that porn/hentai is a good bit sexist but I argue that BE is not sexist at all since women in non porn depictions and even in the real world have pointed out that they have wanted bigger breasts so the actual act of Breast Expansion isn't sexist its just a trigger for dopamine and in some cases adrenaline for the male mind and some females and a prime example that breast expansion isn't sexist is Jessica Simpson she enlarged her breasts by medical means not because she was wanting to debase herself into what the patriarchy views women as she was appealing to the movie producers so she could get more roles in show and such, though not seen her in movies recently.

[Styerion]

Originally Posted by Soren

good point porn/hentai is based mainly on acts of men basically having sex with women or on the hentai side mostly women being put in situations that are indeed making the women populace look like they are nothing more then horny sluts that are submissive if you give them a good bang so it is a good argument that porn/hentai is a good bit sexist but I argue that BE is not sexist at all since women in non porn depictions and even in the real world have pointed out that they have wanted bigger breasts so the actual act of Breast Expansion isn't sexist its just a trigger for dopamine and in some cases adrenaline for the male mind and some females and a prime example that breast expansion isn't sexist is Jessica Simpson she enlarged her breasts by medical means not because she was wanting to debase herself into what the patriarchy views women as she was appealing to the movie producers so she could get more roles in show and such, though not seen her in movies recently.

Soren, for the love of God, use punctuation. It hurts to read something like that, even more than bad spelling.