TF Psychoanalytic Discussion

[Dark Horseman]

Since I've begun contributing to the community, I feel comfortable bringing up this topic now. So how about a discussion regarding the TF fetish where we all realize we're adults and take off the politically-correct gloves, eh? No judging you here.

I like attractive women, and while I can get into normal porn, something about transforming fictional women against their will or at their expense is just much more erotic. I realize there are a few people here who treat it as "interesting subject matter" like some kind of genre of books, but I'm gonna make an assumption and say most people are here to get off from it. So why is this your fetish of all things?

The other odd thing is how diverse this fetish is - I personally only enjoy forced transformation where the victim still has some sexually attractive human features and doesn't have their brain fried. When the girl becomes something extreme like a penis or goes through identity death, that's it for me - can't get into it if they've pretty much just died. And even when they willingly transform, enjoy it, or shapeshift naturally, it's just not erotic anymore. Makes me wonder why I'm into such a specific subset. What's kinda scary (but not really), is that forced transformation is probably closely related to rape fantasy where the woman doesn't consent to it. While this makes me kinda feel like a scumbag, I remember how most hentai has rape anyway (with tentacles), and I'm not pathologically inclined to force myself on actual women. Anyone else have their own Freudian theories?

Ah some other interesting topics is whether you're a furry or not even though you enjoy transformation, and also regarding the people out there who fantasize transforming themselves. Also whether or not actual sex in the material is a plus or makes you adverse to it.

[Wbfoot]

I am curious as to how many Furries are into TF. Being into TF myself, i absolutely cannot stand furries. There is nothing about that world that interests me. My fear is that others will auto lump Furries in with TF Fetishists when i think they are two totally separate things.

[Dark Horseman]

In the beginning I thought I was a furry since I enjoyed transformation of women into monstergirls or anthros. But when I actually tried to look at furry stuff without the TF, it just didn't register and looked rather silly to me. There's also the issue of what the definition of a furry is because if it means you enjoy wearing a fursuit, then that prerequisite is definitely gonna be foreign to a lot of people even here.

[Amahain]

Okay, this might get a bit dark. I enjoy forced TFs too. I particularly enjoy the aspect in which the TF victim is struggling against the change, trying to retain some semblance of her identity while slowly succumbing to mental changes. And while I enjoy corruption stories in which the TF victim still retains her human memories and even aspects of her personality, I'm also okay with total identity erasure (though I'm not okay with inanimate TFs because that just seems like snuff porn to me).

Another weird thing is that I like "dangerous creature" TFs. I don't care if the TF victim ends up being covered in fur, feathers, scales, or chitin; as long as it's something that can tear your throat out if she wants to. This doesn't mean that she has to be consumed by bloodlust - a werewolf that retains enough of her humanity to avoid killing humans is fine - but I like it when the TF victim has to either contend with or simply succumb to evil or violent impulses. So this is why I'm not really into TFs into domestic animals (dogs and cats are a grey area, here - a vicious guard dog or a cat that exercises its predatory instinct is cool, but I probably wouldn't even click on a link that said "woman to golden retriever").

As for this being related to the rape fantasy, there is definitely that non-consensual element to it. I think this is more broadly associated with sadism. I'm not too worried about it, though; my fantasies don't reflect my ethical views as they apply to real life.

Regarding furries, they're not my thing. Nothing against them, but I just don't really see the appeal. The funny thing for me, though, is that whenever I see a furry online throwing the furry fetishists under the bus, I get a bit annoyed. I get the fetishists. It's the G-rated stuff that creeps me out. An adult obsesses about their rainbow unicorn-wolf-cat character, and it's not a sexual thing? This frightens and confuses me.

Also, I have no interest in transforming myself. It would be a cool ability and I'd probably use it if I could (just like I'd fly, turn invisible, or shoot sparkles out of my fingertips if I had the power), but it's not a fantasy of mine.

[GenYun]

Originally Posted by Amahain

Okay, this might get a bit dark. I enjoy forced TFs too. I particularly enjoy the aspect in which the TF victim is struggling against the change, trying to retain some semblance of her identity while slowly succumbing to mental changes. And while I enjoy corruption stories in which the TF victim still retains her human memories and even aspects of her personality, I'm also okay with total identity erasure (though I'm not okay with inanimate TFs because that just seems like snuff porn to me).

Another weird thing is that I like "dangerous creature" TFs. I don't care if the TF victim ends up being covered in fur, feathers, scales, or chitin; as long as it's something that can tear your throat out if she wants to. This doesn't mean that she has to be consumed by bloodlust - a werewolf that retains enough of her humanity to avoid killing humans is fine - but I like it when the TF victim has to either contend with or simply succumb to evil or violent impulses. So this is why I'm not really into TFs into domestic animals (dogs and cats are a grey area, here - a vicious guard dog or a cat that exercises its predatory instinct is cool, but I probably wouldn't even click on a link that said "woman to golden retriever").

As for this being related to the rape fantasy, there is definitely that non-consensual element to it. I think this is more broadly associated with sadism. I'm not too worried about it, though; my fantasies don't reflect my ethical views as they apply to real life.

Regarding furries, they're not my thing. Nothing against them, but I just don't really see the appeal. The funny thing for me, though, is that whenever I see a furry online throwing the furry fetishists under the bus, I get a bit annoyed. I get the fetishists. It's the G-rated stuff that creeps me out. An adult obsesses about their rainbow unicorn-wolf-cat character, and it's not a sexual thing? This frightens and confuses me.

Also, I have no interest in transforming myself. It would be a cool ability and I'd probably use it if I could (just like I'd fly, turn invisible, or shoot sparkles out of my fingertips if I had the power), but it's not a fantasy of mine.

Uncanny.
Get out of my head!

[Dark Horseman]

@Amahain Nah, nothing too dark about it. There's a corruption thread with a couple hundred thousand hits for that sort of thing, so I think it's pretty mainstream for fetishes. Personally, I'm more into embarrassment and mental peril, but I'm turned off if it's to the point of extreme suffering or a complete mental switch. It's sort of like a "you're not the same woman I fell in love with" kind of feel. And actually, you might be onto something with the sadism thing. I had thought it was subliminally wanting rape, but rape isn't something I've sought specifically in regular porn or hentai. Dangerous women are also generally seen as sexy, so becoming a dangerous creature probably adds to the appeal.

I agree with the view on furries, too. Since I got a weird fetish, I really don't see myself in position to judge them or other fetishes like gore or loli. It's really kind of lame when they're pretentious about it though. Like, just man up about it.

[Amahain]

Originally Posted by GenYun

Uncanny.
Get out of my head!

There's a reason I'm a fan of yours!

[TailBoy]

i too don't like the whole 'furrie' thing myself, even though I love werewolves & tf & such, (which i do not believe they're furries) but yes, some things that folks get into go waaaay too far!

[hexen]

I don't have a sliver of knowledge on theorethical psychology so my experience here will be more of an exposition than an attempt at analyzing anything. For me the physical aspect of the TF is the attractive part, muscles popping, bones snapping, bulges and such, but I am really turned off when blood, guts or bones are exposed in extreme manners (as in I am ok with a girl growing spikes but I am not ok with a girl splitting in half).
The interesting part here though is that I am not just attracted to the transformations themselves but to what they bring both before and after AND on the possibility of reversion. What they bring before in means of the girl who is transforming feeling the sensations, good or bad, and struggling or embracing them. After as in the end result bearing some semblance to the original form like hair, tattered clothing or some shred of the original character BUT with the new form's features and overall new characteristics to deal with. And finally the possibility of reversion as in the reversion of the transformation showing the stages of the process going backward into the girl's original form AND the girl either longing or dreading the previous form... so yeah too many aspects but all of them TF related...

As for furies though I found out what I like about them is what I like about porn in general, the feminine shape. So I won't be turned on by porn of cartoony characters but I might be turned on by porn of furry characters with oversexualized human features, and the aspect of women getting wild and having to deal with feral instincts is very interesting to me though regardless of fur or not.

[brandygang]

Well I won't go overboard with Theory and analysis here, I've been looking into one of Jacques Lacan's theory of desire and how it relates to the mirror stage. Basically when we're born we form an immaculate identity that while constructed artificially through language (He explains this as why people naturally are okay with the names given to them and why they feel naturally suited to being them, rather than a different person altogether), can still be flawed within the psychoanalytic realm of that symbolic register. Through this he claims we come to name our desire through our 'Lack', the emptiness that comes through the cracks in our Identity while subtly acknowledging underneath the surface we are imperfect and can never truly be 'ourselves' in more than symbolic ways, because 'we' don't exist. We're nothing more than our bodies, cells, thoughts, words, perceptions cultures and so forth. These can change throughout our life but we never stop thinking of us as ourselves do we? In a way we're always kind of Lusting after the intangible.

I find this concept of identity interesting anyway. And an intriguing way to look at fetishtic desire. (If far less effective therapy)

Often I find myself breaking my fetishes into four categories of Identity, Physical, Mental, Social and Individual.

"Physical" fetishes for me are exactly that, pure attraction towards identification of the body. Or things it wears to identify with. Muscles or chub, physical beauty, raw assets, body changes and a little bit of growth. Fabrics themselves like rubber, latex, pvc or silk and satin are a throughly physical pleasure for me. This a simple fetish, be it for muscle girls, raunchy tramps or supermodels it's just attraction by looks.

Mental fetishes qualify purely by intention and the circumstances proceeding it. This can be thoughts and beliefs, attitudes or wholesome Identities. Mind Control, Corruption and Brainwashing obviously fall within these registers. It can be more than that though, I don't know if one would chalk it up to spiritual or essence' but one's entire identity being decided by circumstance (Be it a world they're in, a new form, a Store, mind-changing clothes, whatever) is pretty interesting. Because of this I tend to associate pure reality changes as sharing categories with the next one.

Social Identities. Conformity basically, the degree to which one goes with or contrasts with their setting and other individuals at large. Corruption for me is also a highly 'social' fetish, but so are most TFs involving stereotypes, like Bimbos, Goths, Nuns and Hookers. They represent a deviance from what society considers 'normal'. The loss of individuality sits squarely here, so fetishes like twinning and assimilation follow for me purely by their relation to the other. They've been big with me for a while, but I'm only just recently discovering my newest kink.

"Individual" fetishes are a term that I coin for those based on focus purely on just that, the individual. It's hard to describe but revolves on ineffable qualities, mostly subjective ones that make up a person beyond the ones above that you could go through a checklist. One's personality, feelings and experiences outside language or the describable. Transformations that involve becoming an entirely new person and killing their identity while creating an entirely new one are like this. But just playing around with an individuals identity (With "Masks" in a metaphorical sense) with less repercussions fits too. I've been really interested in this category lately, so much that I've discovered my love for tfs into new lives characters and entirely new people not ever existing before, giving the direct aspect of creation through transformation an incredible thrill.

Keep in mind imo not many fetishes fall under only a single category. They sort of sit across a wide spectrum of them usually.

BSDM is part social because of the roleplaying and expectations but highly physical as well. Some people like inanimate TFs without any other kinks, while others love them more with bizarre mental changes. (I am a doll. I am a Painting. I am a lovely statue who loves to be looked at, ect.) I'd classify that last one as heavily slanted towards 'Individual' because it's indescribable what it's even like to be stuck in that form and mindset.

It can vary with one fetish aswell. Corruption for a lot of people is a lousy physical change (Who wouldn't want a demon chic with horns, wings and scaly skin?). For a great deal of people it's mental/social focused, akin to hypnosis and mind control. I personally have a very heavy slant towards the Individual route. The more ''corruption'' done through the victims own free will and agency, and more they continue to deal with it freely without outside interference the more attractive it is to me.

That was a buttload but it's how I sometimes categorize and break it down to analyze anyway. I'm sure there are plenty of different ways to think about it.

[Dark Horseman]

@brandygang I recall reading a theory about how the soul or self is merely a construction of an intelligence; that the brain has evolved to think this in order to better handle a social environment. Might actually be from the same guy you're talking about, and personally I believe it - although I'm not bothered by it. It's just an interesting interpretation.

That's a good point about the physical changes, too. It's pretty much universal for guys to like naked, beautiful, curvy women, but I guess there is a scale of how much emphasis people like seeing other categories expressed. Twinning though or becoming a perfect copy of someone else - I just can't get over how I could've been seeing two, different beautiful women or a new creature, and I feel kinda cheated seeing the same thing drawn twice or something that resembles regular fanart in the end. I guess I place that huge emphasis on physical, or it could be that I've just been turned off by that huge influx of Ash-turns-into-a-girl-again commissions.

@hexen Yeah, I brought up the furry issue since a lot of TF Artists post on furaffinity, but it doesn't seem like the majority identify with it. I'm beginning to think it might just be because it's a safe website for fetish material. And I feel the best mental aspects of a TF are when the woman finds out its permanent. When they reverse, I always get that feel that a cop has come over and started waving people away: "All right fellas, you had your fun. Show's over folks."

[brandygang]

Originally Posted by Dark Horseman

@brandygang I recall reading a theory about how the soul or self is merely a construction of an intelligence; that the brain has evolved to think this in order to better handle a social environment. Might actually be from the same guy you're talking about, and personally I believe it - although I'm not bothered by it. It's just an interesting interpretation.

That's a good point about the physical changes, too. It's pretty much universal for guys to like naked, beautiful, curvy women, but I guess there is a scale of how much emphasis people like seeing other categories expressed. Twinning though or becoming a perfect copy of someone else - I just can't get over how I could've been seeing two, different beautiful women or a new creature, and I feel kinda cheated seeing the same thing drawn twice or something that resembles regular fanart in the end. I guess I place that huge emphasis on physical, or it could be that I've just been turned off by that huge influx of Ash-turns-into-a-girl-again commissions.

@hexen Yeah, I brought up the furry issue since a lot of TF Artists post on furaffinity, but it doesn't seem like the majority identify with it. I'm beginning to think it might just be because it's a safe website for fetish material. And I feel the best mental aspects of a TF are when the woman finds out its permanent. When they reverse, I always get that feel that a cop has come over and started waving people away: "All right fellas, you had your fun. Show's over folks."

I can see the changes being pretty stratified from the raw attraction itself in some cases. At least for me, a lot of what I'm attracted to physically I don't think I really identify with or would bring any mental/essential pleasure by taking on, muscles, chub, skintight clothes, ect. It's something I might get interested in for a minute than tire of. That's why I rank the Identify of it as purely physical.

On the other hand, I can think of things I wouldn't normally be 'hyper-attracted' to but the fetish, if you want to call it that is from the mental, social and individual output. Take Goths, I find the most exagerrated looks attractive, some don't. But even beyond that the extraordinary mudane (Contradiction much?) concept of a Goth, "Thinking like one", "Socializing like one", or "Identifying as one", even as a completely mythical and fictional idea must hold some strange nebulous, shallow fringe of truth to it.

I think that's along the lines of what Lacan (And possibly what you read about construction) was talking about. Identity is constructed, and so is (differentiated and specific, non-instinctual) desire. Usually through language, a fiction or story we tell about ourselves for the better handling of socializing and adapting. Whether it's to be 'Human', a specific race or group, a subculture, religion, 'Goth' or even 'You.' Especially 'You.'

So one could say that even though instinctually I don't find a bare-bones "Goth" to be physically appealing, just them identifying as such alone gives an allure through these identities I spoke of. Even knowing it's a lie it must be adhered to (More on that in a moment), but refusing the symbolic (That Goths or a certain identity are a large, subjective collection of values rather than a real tangible thing) and overlooking, valuing and emphasizing the 'Real' (Another contradictory usage because it's not real at all!) idealized reality of such an implausibility is what give it's fetishtic power.

That's a funny stuffy way of saying that often we're attracted to things that aren't real. The unreality of them is desirable even. We may know things like Bimbos, goths and caricatured stereotypes purely because they're so absurd, not unlike clowns or really any fetish. Can you really think of a fetish that doesn't sound silly and super weird under some context?
Now how many of those weird fetishes can be put into words or sentences that make sense under the same context?